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Welcome to part 2 of the 'Conversation with Chuck Maddox'.
In the first
part we discussed interests and how this watch thing started, this
part will be more focussed on brands and collecting.
Do you have a maximum budget for a watch (in general)? So a
single watch never will be more expensive then (let's say) 5000 Euro or
USD?
Thus far I haven't spent more than $3,300 on a watch (prior
to getting it in my hands anyway). I haven't bid above $4,000 thus far.
Those aren't fixed limits, but it's been where I've been comfortable on
the high end with Internet transactions thus far. Those aren't "limits"
or "budget maximums" just where my comfort level has bailed out on me in
the past...
One of the things as a collector you have to keep a mind on is not
only what is called "the Stein point" named for OnTheDash owner Jeff
Stein... Jeff councils people to bid to your point of indifference about
winning a watch on eBay and not winning the watch. This is the point
were if you win the watch you feel exactly the same (i.e. indifferent)
as if you are the first runner up. With the scarcity of some of the
models I'm collecting, I've had to create in my mind a "Stein plus 3
month" and a "Stein plus 6 month point" which is the same point, but
will you feel the same way about being the first runner up on a watch 3
and 6 months down the line when another one doesn't show up to be bid
upon.
Counterbalancing those "bidder's remorse" points are some other
considerations. I would guess like many collectors there is a short list
of watches that I'd like to add to my collection. I try to keep enough
money on hand so that if one of those other watches appears on eBay just
after I've made a purchase I have enough funds I can consider putting in
a serious bid on the second watch. Or you've just spent $3k on a watch
and one of the other one's on your list comes up, you might have to pass
on it. One of the positions a collector never wants to get into is when
you see a model of watch you feel you need or the deal is too good to
pass up and not really think you can afford the watch and you go ahead
and do a "I'll buy it and figure out how to pay it later". That's
probably a danger sign you're a little more addicted to this hobby than
is healthy.
And it works both ways... If you drop a sizable stack of chips on a
triple-date Moonphase you might feel the need to pass on some lesser
cost items that come along soon after.
So, like many other things in life, bidding and purchasing is a bit
of a balancing act. Bidders remorse balancing buyer remorse, and so
forth. And while those figures I have mentioned above have been what my
maximums have been so far, under the right conditions and for the right
watch, they could be topped.
On the other hand some of my most interesting and fun watches have
come at the other end of the spectrum. I own at least 5 chronographs
(five automatic, one manual wind, three Swiss three Japanese) that I
have less than $200 into. They are great fun to wear, work great, keep
good time and while you'd be sad if one of them broke or were stolen, it
wouldn't be as hard of a hit as if you suffered a loss on a nice
Speedmaster/Carrera/IWC/Zenith. A lot of collectors are hung up on
expensive brands and minty watches. The inexpensive watches with some
usage marks are GREAT FUN! You don't have to have big bucks to find cool
and interesting watches to collect! You can have much more fun with a
cheap beat-up old Jeep than you can in a brand new Range
Rover.
Do you forget about rational 'rules' sometimes, when bidding or
buying a watch you really like?
The only really fixed notion I have in my (likely less than)
rational mind when I'm considering a watch is to consider how much money
I have on my person, how much money I have in my various bank accounts,
and how much money I can reasonably count on having in the near future.
As for my interests, for the most part, I'm very happy and content in
a certain niche of chronographs... I like chronographs basically from
within or near my life span, mainly of the middle to upper middle of the
field when it comes to the quality level of Swiss brands. I don't own a
Rolex Daytona, but if I live long enough to accumulate the funds to
purchase one of the models I like I would like to someday. Some brands
you'll never see me go for unless I win the lottery... I doubt you'll
ever see me wearing a AP, Lange, Bruget or Blancplan, UN or VC either. I
like the looks of the Reverso so I won't rule out a JLC, I like certain
Universal Geneve's although I only own a single Space-Compax. There
always seems to be brands I can explore. There are also many lesser
known and lesser appreciated and often underpriced brands that I find
fascinating: Tissot, Zodiac, Certina, and even more obscure brands that
many people haven't discovered. Their loss...
Since I know you as one of the Speedmaster-meisters on the net,
can you tell me what you think about the way Omega is heading too?
Yes, you may. I think if I were to come up with a single
word to describe Omega at this time it would be unfocused. In the
past, even recent past they had specific product lines and particular
niches for most, if not all of the models in that product line. Their
approach was identify a niche and develop a product to fill that niche
perfectly with a level of quality, dependability and supportability that
we can easily attain and maintain with a level of service that takes
people's breath away.
In the past couple of years, Omega, with a number of other brands
have been trying to reposition their brand to some extent... Breitling,
TAG-Heuer, Zenith, are the names most people are familiar with. Each
have gone about it a different way. For Breitling, they've sought to
"add-value" by having all of their products pass C.O.S.C.
testing. TAG-Heuer and Zenith are now both owned by LVMH. TAG is
doing an interesting thing... They are growing both upscale and
downscale. They now use an El-Primero base movement in some models of
their chronographs, and they've reintroduced some F1 models to
reestablish their entry level models. Zenith finished up supplying
chronograph movements to Rolex, entered the US market and said "We
supplied movements for Rolex, so our products are priced close to Rolex
now" which has increased the values of Zeniths new and vintage. The
latter doesn't particularly make me happy as there are some models of
El-Primero that I still seek.
Into this fierce higher competition steps Omega. Omega seems to have
listened to people who have bemoaned "Omega doesn't use their own
movements" and with fellow Swatch Group division Fredric Piguet
conceived of a new movement that they could claim is "an Omega
Exclusive". Which is fine if it functionality, usability, durability and
reliability is on par with your existing product. Unfortunately it
doesn't seem the resulting c.33xx is.
So between trying to position the product upscale, and dealing with a
dicey movement, Omega has come out with a slew of new models and
variations that overlap so much that I honestly don't think the customer
can decide between them. I mean on the Speedmaster moonwatch line alone
I had to create a table to explain all of the differences between
Omega's offerings within the Moonwatches...
An aside:
There are 10
variations of the basic Moonwatch in Stainless Steel that have
been/are/will soon be offered by Omega in the past 20 months or so.
Add 3 more if you count Gold models, 3 more if you count Moonphase
models in steel, another if you count the gold Moonphase, and if you
want to go back to 1999 you can add the 30th Anniversary edition and
the 1957 Re-Edition. Whew!
And this is just the moonwatch line!
Now we also have a slew of new Seamaster Chronographs, Railmaster
Chronographs, DeVille Chronographs, Constellation Chronographs, Aqua
Terra's, Apnea's, many of these broad product lines with many
sub-lines that no one can keep straight or even find, other than they
know Omega offers/offered 'em. And all of this, 80-90% of the
non-moonwatch line that I mentioned in the previous sentence is prior to
the slew of special editions that Omega has come out with... Schumacher
special editions every time he wins a world championship (which puts the
1990's Chicago Bulls to shame I'll add), all of the Olympic
Special Editions, the Ernie Els special edition Connie's, etc.
I'm all for diversity, but there comes a point when it becomes
ridiculous.
And the net effect is Omega painting themselves in a corner if one
of those special editions becomes popular. Take for example the "Black
Eyed/White Dialed" Speedmasters that have come out in special
editions this past year... Towards the end of 2003 Omega made a Special
run of 300 Black Sub-dial/White Dial Speedmasters for the Mitsukoshi
department store chain. With such a small production run in Japan (there
are no more rabid collectors anywhere) a sell out was guaranteed. Omega
decided to make the 35th
Anniversary Moonwatch have a very similar look, with the addition
of "July 20, 1969" in red on the dial. This time with a limited edition
run of 3500 units. The United States is going to be allocated 568 of
these watches and Omega has 1,000 authorized dealers in the US. One
dealer I know has the credit card numbers on file for ten of them. In
other words when they receive shipment of these watches towards the
end of the month if they get ten watches, they will immediately go out
the door to waiting customers. If the store only gets one only one will
go out. Supply will be very tight and if you want one and don't have
your name on a list already chances are you won't be able to get one.
So here is a situation where Omega has a hot product, one it's
customers would love to get an example of, but they've already done two
nearly identical models in limited production special editions! They
can't really release a general production version of this watch without
seriously ticking off the collector community. Now granted, I don't
believe this basic look of watch is one Omega could expect to have
enough sales of to make it a permanent addition to the product line for
the next 15 or 25 years. But Omega could probably easily sell 10,000 or
20,000 of this basic watch annually for the next five years or more.
Unless they've painted themselves in a corner with their special edition
versions of this watch, like they have! The same thing with the Legend,
the Olympic special editions... If one of them takes off, they may not
be able to exploit the demand and sell watches to people who want them.
This is not a company that is thinking ahead of the next quarter, the
next Basel fair... At least from my perspective.
Thus, In a word, unfocused.
To use a computer analogy... in 1997 when Steve Jobs returned to
Apple Computer after being deposed for 12 years Apple had between 15 and
18 product lines... With 6 months they had four: Pro/Consumer -
Desktop/laptop... Today, six later... Apple has Five computer product
lines: the same as before and a special model geared for Education. Five
focused lines better serve Apple's customer needs than 15 or 18
unfocused ones. It is that simple.
Don't you think they have too many models around at the moment,
to me it seems like they are going to make the same mistake as they did in
the 1970s.
Yes, but not for the same reasons as the 1970's...
I don't think the problems that Omega had in the 1970's were because
of the many models they offered back then... The 1970's were a different
time and there were many other and different market forces involved. In
a vast majority of the world the 1970's were a time of economic turmoil,
a time of vast changes in the market place. A switch from a high
precision mechanics to high-technology electronics. The entire Swiss
watch industry may not have been blind sided by the Quartz/Japanese
invasion, but for the most part they were powerless to stop if. For the
most part only Rolex in the middle range luxury brand landscape survived
largely unchanged. Everyone else in this range either defaulted
(Breitling, Gallet, many others) others significantly restructured or
bought out (Omega, Heuer->TAG-Heuer), shrunk or simply disappeared.
Omega's strategy for survival was to have a lot of different irons
(manual wind, automatics, quartz, tuning fork) in the fire so that they
had their money on all horses. The problem they then had was they didn't
have enough in any one winning entrant.
The problem today is that there are so many other brands out there
with similar products the way to really win new/repeat customers is to
distinguish oneself with either better product, better quality/support
or a better all around deal. Because Omega is concentrating on so many
different models and sub-lines they are distracted enough that their
quality control and customer support appears to be slipping very
noticeably. And this was one of Omega's strong suits not very long ago
(5 years).
Is there a company who has a strategy you like best? Rolex
for not changing a thing (only minor changes) through the years, or Blancpain
for never making a quartz watch or Tag
Heuer to reproduce the watches they made in the 60s (Monaco,
Carrera etc.)?
[laughing] Let me run through the examples you give...
[Laughs] It always comes back to Rolex and Omega! There is a lot to
be said about Rolex's philosophy of sticking with the classics. There is
a reason why the Model T, the VW Beetle, Jeep CJ, and Porsche 911 have
been largely unchanged for many many years. Because like them or hate
them they did something very well and people bought them because of
that. I know I'd like to see Rolex be a little more experimental in
nature, but I know I shouldn't get my hopes up... I know Rolex offers a
multitude of ways to customize their watches with different dials/bezels
etc. But I can't get a Chronograph with a date feature unless I go to a
1950's model.
Blancpain... Quartz
movements aren't a sin. Nor are they anything to be ashamed to have
produced. They serve a valid need for people and some are pretty cool.
While I certainly have preferences, I don't have problems with Quartz or
electronic movements (Tuning Forks).
TAG-Heuer... Up until four or five years ago TAG had a strategy I
liked... Survival. I hear people bemoan all the time how they like (the
old) Heuers but hate TAG-Heuer. I've always been of the mind set
regardless of how I've felt about the current TAG-Heuer line, I prefer a
live TAG-Heuer to a dead and buried Heuer. I believe TAG has the right
idea with the Classics line but I think the implementation can be
improved. I'd like to see them develop close versions of the original,
not some of the "manufactured" classics like the Monza which only shares
the name of the original Monza. I'd like to see a Carrera re-edition
featuring a manual wind version of a Zenith movement instead of an
ETA/Dubois-Depraz piggyback model. With some of their new models and
concepts though, in particular the Monaco V.4 and the Aquagraph 2000,
that TAG-Heuer isn't afraid to innovate on movements or with the state
of the art of what a serious tool watch can be.
One firm that I frequently mention as one that I am very fond of is
Ventura. They too are a niche player in the market place. They have one
very defined niche: Bauhaus watch design that I just absolutely love.
The only Ventura models I don't like are some of the more recent garish
gold and Diamond encrusted models which I feel break the Bauhaus mold.
What I like about their designs is that they are so striking and
beautiful they are going to still look modern and beautiful in 30 years.
They are timeless. (I moved this paragraph/answer up one question...
This is where it belongs)
How about the road that independent watch companies like Sinn,
Tutima, Fortis, Bell&Ross, Chronoswiss
take, to name a few?
All of the firms you mention have a perceived market niche
and work hard to keep their products great standard bearers for that
niche. Of the ones you mention, I personally group the first four: Sinn,
Bell & Ross, Tutima and Fortis together a lot... In fact I sometimes
call them the four little Germanic firms... Sinn has obvious German
roots, Bell & Ross were essentially re-branded Sinn up until the
introduction of the Space three about five years back. Tutima is German,
and the Fortis product line and reason to be is so close to the other
three it seems natural to group them together. Of those four Bell &
Ross is the only brand I don't own an example of.
Chronoswiss is another interesting brand that has a narrow prescribed
niche in which it operates in and sticks with it. I love their products,
very pretty and a wonder to look at, I hope some day to own one some
day. But they aren't my typical "big and bold, rough and rugged watch"
fare.
Your preferences for chronograph movements is probably no secret,
you like the Lemania movements best,
hmmm.... Yeah I guess. I like Lemania's a lot, probably best
too.
especially the out-of-production Lemania
5100 movement.
I do have a fondness for that model, more so than many
collectors, but there are other very strong 5100 fans out
there.
What are you thoughts on Lemania movements in general (i.e.
Omega/Lemania caliber 321, 861,
1861, 1040, Lemania 134x, Lemania 5100)?
Let me run through them in order too...
c.321: A beautiful classic chronograph movement (along with
the 27 CHRO c12, it's predecessor). A beautiful movement to behold,
neither the Valjoux 72 series nor the Zenith HP146 movements (both fine
movements) are as handsome as this movement. Tough as nails, has the
column wheel instead of the c.861's lever-cam arrangement. Now, while 99
out of 100 chronograph collectors will tell you that they prefer the
Column Wheel and the looks of an arched bridge, in terms of function
there is little if any difference in actual day to day usage in my
experience. This, I'm easy going on the Column-Wheel/Lever-Cam question.
c.861 Family: Remember there are a number of variants of this
movement. If Omega replaced the c.321 with anyone else, people would
have descended on Bienne with torches and pitchforks. Every bit as tough
s the c.321, easier to manufacture, higher beat movement, not as pretty
as the c.321. Some people have accused me of having a preference for the
c.321 in the past. I like them both. Both are great movements.
c.1861... I'm odd that for some reason, I personally prefer
silvery colored watches (Steel and Titanium) but I prefer gilt plated
(Gold colored) movements. I can't explain why but I do. Aside from the
color Rhodium is a superior material for plating watch movements [full
stop].
c.1040/c.1041 (Lemania 1342): Kinda the odd man out in
Lemania's chronograph lineup. It has an odd "common-axial"
subdial at 9 o'clock that leads to a asymmetrical subdial layout
that is, well... Odd. Hard to get used to, especially if you're used to
the 5100 or Valjoux 7750 layouts. However, when you look at the movement
in comparison to the 5100 the 1040/1041 is has a much nicer look and
better level of finish than any 5100 I've seen save for the Alain
Silberstein models. A very nice movement that is frequently lost in the
shuffle because of it's odd dial-layout. Aside from the odd subdial
layout the one thing I really don't care for on this base movement is
the "quick change" date feature... On the c.134x models, it seems to
have a heavy "camming" motion to the quick change, while on the 5100 and
Valjoux 7750 it's a light crisp "snick-snick" feel to the action. I only
have one of the c.1341 model Lemania's in a Wakmann perpetual calendar
model. I haven't been particularly impressed with the Wakmann's
performance. Perhaps I'll sample a Tissot c.1341 in the future.
Lemania 5100: The "AK-47" of chronograph movements: accurate,
dependable, reliable, can take punishment that no other watch can
survive and keeps on ticking. Certainly not the prettiest movement in
the world, or the most elegant of operation, but provides a multitude of
information in the easiest to read layout of any watch with so complex
of a feature set.
You didn't mention a couple of movements RJ, so I will... Valjoux
7750 family...
Correct, it was left out by purpose, since I am personally not very
fond about it :-)
Hmmm... Besides it's commonality is there any particular
reason why you don't like it? I'm curious...
I also think it is not a very interesting movement to discuss,
because like the non-chronograph ETA2892-A2 movement, it is very common.
And qualitywise it is probably a great movement, as it has proven itself
over the years in a diversity of watch brands like Omega, IWC,
Breitling, Sinn, Chronoswiss and a whole lot of other brands. However, I
think the competition, like the Lemania 5100 is just more interesting.
I suppose I can see that. I'm not a big fan of the Chevy
small-block V-8 (I'm a Ford sort of guy) but even I admit that the Chevy
is sound, a good design and the choice of many.
My personal 'against' the 7750 is the free spinning direction of
this movement, the wobble it gives on the wrist doesn't feel 'good' for
me. Anyway, at least one watch on my 'wanted-list is a Valjoux 7750 driven
Panerai, so it is absolutely not the case that I don't want to own a
7750.
[Laughs] Danger RJ Broer DANGER! this is where the trouble
starts, and the next thing you know you have handful's of them. Like a
peanut, it's hard to stop after just having one.
However, feel free to talk about the 7750..
[Smiles] Ok, If the 5100 is the AK-47 of chronograph
movements, the 7750 is the Swiss Army knife of chronograph movements.
I'll run out of digits to count variations on before Swatch Group runs
out of variations of this ubiquitous movement. While personally I prefer
the 5100 for durability, ease of reading (that center chronograph minute
hand again), and 24-Hour register, I also am fond of the 7750. Recently
I purchased a Katun limited production run of the Sinn 144 GMT which has
a GMT complication of the Valjoux 7750 and I really REALLY like that
watch. If you are looking for a great full featured watch that has all
the bells and whistles (but you can't get a 5100) the Sinn 144 GMT is a
candidate worth considering. I know that nearly as many people in the
"Haute Horology" crowd look down their collective noses at the 7750 as
the Lemania 5100. Admittedly this is about the most common chronograph
movement out there these days. But some movement has to be. It's a good
solid movement, perhaps not the easiest or most exciting movement to
service, but it gives a lot of bang for the buck and is a strong
performer. I don't feel the 7750 family is as easy to read quickly or
able to endure as much abuse as a 5100, but aside from those things it
does everything else well in my book.
And then we have the piggybacking chronograph movements, the
ETA/Dubois-Depraz movements. I handled a few, amongst them a Speedmaster
Automatic. I never heard much complaints (except for accuracy, which is
more or less different per movement of course) on these piggybacking
movements. How do you look at these movements?
I suspect that my experience mirror's yours... I hear good
things from owners about it being a good performer (timekeeping and
operation), and I hear the other side (the chonograph module is a bear
to work on and most watchmakers won't touch the module and will pitch
and replace to the tune of $150 in cost). As I don't usually go for
smaller chronographs I haven't felt compelled to own one. The other
thing that bothers me about the Reduced (and hence other watches with
this movement) is the swapping of the minute and small seconds on the
dial. I'm sure it would be something I could get used to, but it must be
like using a left-handed pair of sissors if you're a righty, it just
seems odd.
On the larger issue of "Piggy-Back" vs. "ground-up" chronographs, I
guess I don't have a big problem with Piggy-Back movements. I have a
slew of Micro-Rotor chronographs (Heuer, Hamilton as well as
Chrono-sport and even a Bulova "Parking Meter" Bullhead) as well as a
couple of Heuer/TAG-Heuer's with the LWO 283 movement which features an
ETA 2890 or ETA 2892 base timekeeping movement with a Lemania made
piggyback chronograph movement. I've found the LWO's are excellent
performers and I like them even though their subdial's have a different
layout than the Lemania 7750. And of course there are the Tuning fork
Chronographs I own which also have a piggy-back arrangement on a Tuning
fork movement.
I guess to sum up, I think I'd recommend people stick with a
"purpose-made" chronograph to start out unless a particular model really
excites them. They can always explore piggybacks as they coutinue their
collecting journey.
The Omega c.33xx
movement (c.3303, c.3313, and c.3301)... This subject is one that
I've probably spent more time on and experienced more contention than
any other since I started collecting watches. A couple of years back
Omega announced with much fanfare that they were going to be releasing a
new chronograph using a movement codeveloped with Frederic Piguet.
Piguet had developed and sold to some higher end brands a movement
called the c.1185. The new Omega-Piguet movement was a new movement
incorporating many of the features that the 1185 possessed but was to be
a new movement. Omega came out with the watches and a bunch of people
jumped on the "in-house movement" (a bit of a misnomer, it's an Omega
Exclusive, but in-house could be, and has been, debated) bandwagon and
bought one. At the time I urged people be cautious because there were
frequently problems with new movements and it seemed to me to make sense
to hold off purchase for a year, maybe two to see if there were any
problems with the movement.
It didn't take long, but the first reports of problems started coming
in... ... and they continued to come in, and have kept on coming in, and
while we are in a lull currently (about 6 weeks since we've heard of a
new problem) we have come to expect a new problem report every couple of
weeks.
A TZ Omega Forum regular was kind enough to post a service bulletin
that detailed four main problems with these movements.
The 33x3 problems post at by Shaun T and my (rather lengthy) thoughts about it can be found on
TZ.
To sum up there are some parts that these movements were
shipped with that have since been revised to correct problems that were
discovered after these watches were delivered to dealers and customers.
While Omega says they have taken steps to correct these issues, it is at
the very least debatable if they are enough for a firm who wishes to
keep the kind of customer relation rapport they have enjoyed in the
past.
I feel the c.33xx has potential, but unfortunately, thus far, it
hasn't lived up to expectations that people had for it. Omega/Piguet may
be able to overcome the problems they've experienced in time, but they
have a ways to go... There is more they could be doing to minimize this
issue from a dealer and from a customer standpoint.
I recently had an email conversation with Jean-Michael the owner of
both lemania5100.net and navitimer.net and this is how I
summed up my feelings on the c.33xx movement:
Thus far, it's been my observation that the c.33xx is the
antithesis of the 5100... Where the c.33xx is beautiful, the 5100 is
comparatively crude and where the c.33xx is sophisticated, the 5100 is
basic. However, where the 5100 is dependable, the c.33xx has been
flaky and where the 5100 is rugged, the c.33xx is fragile.
That is my impression of the c.33xx movement family based on what
I've seen.
Have you ever seen a Lemania movement used in Patek
Philippe watches seen up close & personal?
I've only had quick glimpses of Patek's and never had an
opportunity to closely examine the movement.
What did you think of it, did it gave you a thrill?
They are nice watches, but they are really out of my
interest sphere. It would be like me looking at vintage Bugatti's, they
are so outside my interest sphere, I can appreciate their beauty on a
certain level, but my tastes are more blue collar than white tie and
tails.
And the size... aside from the fact that they are a bit 'vintage
Bugatti', and thus with ditto price tag, they are small!!
Well the price tags are certainly anything but small! The
are really outside my serious interest sphere, and as such while I'll
give them a glance in a display case, they won't get much other
scrutiny. On the other hand, even though I'm not exactly going to me
mistaken for a jockey being John Candy sized as I am, I have bought some
smaller chronographs the past couple of years. A Bucherer, a couple of
Tissot's and a couple of Tourneau's that are on the smaller side
(smaller than a 1960's Seamaster or Carrera) and they are nice watches
and great to wear as a change of pace.
Back to the Valjoux-series, are you fond of the older Valjoux
movements, like the Valjoux 72 family?
Yes, I am. I own a number of Valjoux 72's as well as the
many variations: v.721 (Seafarer), v.723 (triple-date), several c.724's
(GMT Complication), c.726 (Improved c.72), and a c.728 (single register
with a center pinion chronograph minute counter (similar to the Lemania
5100 and 1341/2) and the v.88 (triple-date Moonphase. A very good solid
movement. I don't feel it is as pretty as the Lemania 321 but it's very
nice, more variation in features. The Valjoux has a number of very long
and delicate levers that the Lemania either doesn't have or are shorter
or much thicker, which contribute to the Lemania's reputation for robust
movements that can take punishment well. BTW, for those who are
interested the v.727 refers to the Rolex version of the Valjoux 72
typically.
I've said in the past, and drawn the ire of some moonwatch fans, when
I've said I'm not comfortable blaming the 72 for the failure of Rolex
and Longines in the NASA astronaut watch tests. One can't easily lay the
blame for the disqualification of the Longines-Wittnauer (popped
crystal) and Rolex (warped hands) competitors for the NASA testing at
the feet of the Valjoux 72 because their failures were non-movement
related issues. We may never know if, say, a Omega manufactured v.72
might have been able to have pass the NASA tests.
As for Zenith, you have a few El Primero driven watches,
A few. I received one between parts 1 and 2 of this
conversation.
what do you think about this movement qualitywise?
I think in terms of technical design it's still the high
water mark. Manufacture quality... It's the equal of anyone else's work
in my opinion.
Is the movement hyped do you think,
Certainly it's acclaimed, in my opinion for good reason.
Hyped? Perhaps, but not over hyped. I mean no other movement in mass
production can do what it does, and it has done it for 35 years
now.
or does it really live up to its quality-image on the several
watchfora?
I feel it does, and I feel many other people would feel the
same way.
Let me put it this way. How many Omega fans would line up to buy a
moonwatch equipped with an El-Primero movement, how many Breitling
owners? IWC? I think the line would go out the door.
Rolex used the Zenith El Primero movement for a while in their
Daytona.
Yes, and they labored for a number of years to develop their
own in-house movement. A move I applaud. That's a significant investment
in resources and faith that the ends will justify the means.
Why would Rolex have downgraded the bph to 28800 instead of
maintaining the 36000 bph and did some more changes in construction (like
the escapement and balance), to maintain a certain quality in their
Daytona models?
My knowledge of Rolex's motives is probably at the competent
guessing level. But it's been my observation that Rolex prefers
tradition, durability and ease of servicing over other considerations
when there is a conflict. So they fine-tuned the movement to their
tastes. No different than Carroll Shelby making changes in the GT-40's
he was supplied in Ford's quest to win LeMans in the 1960's. A watch
beating at 28,800 is not going to need service as frequently or as
exotic of lubricants as Zenith uses in it's tune of the El-Primero.
An aside: I read a post in a Rolex forum this morning where someone
posted the papers for a Bond Sub they had just acquired... The text of
the service center page illustrates well Rolex's mindset:
OIL CHANGE EVERY 7000 MILES
The rim of a balance wheel travels 7000 miles in 18 months. That's
time for an oil change. Every year to 18 months take your watch to an
official Rolex servicing agent for oiling and cleaning, and if it's an
Oyster, a waterproof check.
Rolex owners are known for using their watches the way an adventurer
would use a Land Rover. Zenith has a different market segment it
prefers. You'll notice the near complete lack of sports models in
Zeniths more recent product lineups. Sport's models: Sub's, GMT's,
'Dwellers, Daytona's are Rolex's bread and butter.
What is your opinion on servicing chronograph watches? You have
quite a few vintage chronograph watches, and 'specialties' as well
(Speedmaster (Pro) caliber 321 models,
Well, certainly not just c.321's on the Speedmasters... I
have some Seamasters too.
Breitling Navitimer
ref. 806, Zenith El Primero). Maintaining these watches isn't cheap, have
you got a schedule for this, or do you only service the pieces who get
regular 'wristtime'?
I inspect virtually all of my watches under
high-magnification upon receipt. If the watch looks clean and lubricated
properly (damp in the right places, but not dry or wet), I'll wear them,
testing for function, accuracy and reliability. If I have any doubts
I'll take/send it to one of four people I've sought out and trust. Two
of the fellows are Chicagoland local for me, one is in New England, the
other in the greater Toronto Canada metroplex. Baring them I'll send it
to the factory or an authorized service center.
I do keep my watches in a safe climate controlled location with
adequate heating/cooling humidity controls to keep the watches happy.
And remember that with very few exceptions most of my watches get very
scarce wrist time. So they don't get a lot of wear. If I haven't worn a
watch in a long time and it's turn is up, I'll wind it up, give it a
whirl and if I have any cause to suspect something amiss I'll inspect
and deal with it.
Aside from that I'm working to establish a regular schedule for my
watches to get at least a clean and lube every couple of years. I'm not
entirely there yet, and it is far from automatic, but that's the long
term plan.
Back to a more general point of view on watches and the watch
business. Can you give me a quick thought on the Swiss watch industry, the
German watch industry and the Japanese watch industry?
I'm not going to take these in order... But, hmmm...
Japanese watch industry... I think there was a time where they
were incredibly innovative and aggressive in the marketplace, being
among the first to develop an automatic chronograph movement, an early
adopter of LED and LCD quartz technology, as well as realizing the
benefits of analog quartz offerings, then for the most part they rested
on their laurels for a while evolving instead of innovating. The past
couple of years I've seen some really interesting ideas and things
coming from Seiko and Citizen (especially) as well as Casio and even
Timex. I've long said that one would be hard pressed to find a better
deal "bang for the buck" than a Casio G-Shock watch. It's good to see
some of the nifty new things, both technological and quality wise on the
Japanese front.
The German brands... I'm going to assume you mean the German
brands we were talking about earlier...
Well, I meant the German watch industry in general, which includes
A.
Lange & Söhne, Glashuette Original, Nomos etc.
For the most part these brands are outside my usual interest
sphere. I admire the quality and inventiveness of their movement and
configurations. They watches each create are technological a
tour-de-force. However with these three they aren't going to be mistaken
for tool watches. I will say that I personally consider Nomos to be one
of the hidden gems of the watch industry. They make beautiful watches at
a reasonable cost and every owner I've ever talked to has been thrilled
with their purchase.
As for the German "Tool Watch" brands... The big problem they face is
the supply of ebauches. Which involves the Swiss watch industry... Up
until a couple of years ago all four of these brands: Sinn, Bell &
Ross, Tutima and Fortis were heavily dependent on the Lemania 5100. Bell
& Ross started transitioning about the same time they were cutting
their ties with Sinn, and seem to be completely 7750 based. Sinn still
has a few 5100 models available but they are getting scarce, and once
they are gone... They are gone. Fortis started transitioning after Bell
& Ross and with the exception of a limited edition B-42 is
completely over to the 7750. Which leaves Tutima... I really don't know
what Tutima's plans are. They are probably the smallest of these brands
in terms of size and sales. It's possible they have a surplus of 5100's
and can continue production for the time being and perhaps into the
future. But sooner or later they too will have to switch to something.
A moment of rage here for the 5100... It's a shame that Swatch
either with intent or neglect is putting the 5100 out to pasture. The
reasons aren't because the watch is a failure, or unpopular or there is
a lack of demand for it, but rather it isn't pretty in the opinion of
the watch movement appreciation society and no one within Swatch or
Lemania is interested in putting their wing over it and protecting it.
It's a fine movement, a better performer than many of it's replacements
(c.33xx among them) are. If Swatch, or Lemania can't be bothered to make
it, then license it or sell it off like they did the LWO 283 movement to
Dubois-Depraz! There aren't a huge number of automatic-chronograph
movements around that watch firms can use to make watches. We need more
choices not fewer. If I ever win the lottery maybe I'll approach Swatch.
The Swiss watch industry... The biggest cloud on the horizon
for the Swiss watch industry is Swatch's decision to stop supplying base
ebauches to anyone willing to pay for them. I forget the exact date, but
in the near future, Swatch will only sell assembled movements to
non-Swatch group firms. I understand and empathize with their
situation... Unscrupulous groups have been purchasing base movements and
making convincing replicas out of them. But what does this mean to firms
using them? Higher costs for movements they incorporate into their
watches. What does that mean to the customer? Higher prices. With the
exception of Rolex, Zenith, some of the high-end manufacturers, all of
whom make their own movements, and of course Swatch Group companies
themselves this means they either have to pay Swatch Group for their
reluctance to support the Swatch/ETA movement conglomerate, find a new
movement supplier, or make their own. Will this cause a flurry of
movement development among non-Swatch firms? Perhaps for simpler
movements, less likely for chronographs. Which I believe for most firms
and for consumers expect prices to rise significantly in the next couple
of years. On the other hand, the global economy, which had been in
something of a funk ever since the "Asian Contagion" of the higher
prices without difficulty. Hard to say.
I also think that some of the Watch conglomerates will continue to
cherry pick independent firms to add to their portfolio. With some of
the firms we've mentioned going up stream in the niche market place I
can see "the bigs" looking for other firms, set up and ready to go to
fill in the areas that those firms have started to neglect. Wittnauer,
Waltham, Oris, Limes, Glycine, Revue Thommen among others might be good
candidates with followings, enough heritage and fame to be valued
additions.
Are you aware of the "new" Dutch watch company called Van der
Gang, which is besides Christiaan van der Klaauw our own watch company in
The Netherlands?
While I've heard of Christiaan van der Klaauw, I was
unfamiliar with Van
der Gang. I guess I have to do some Google searching! This is why I
consider myself a student of the topic at hand. For I'm always learning
new things.
What do you think about their chronograph and the fact that their
influences are very obvious (IWC Portugieser Chronograph)?
I have no problems with people making their own
interpretation of the "classics", but I don't think it's very bright for
an unknown to make a copy with a movement that is likely as common as
dirt, add little value and charge the same price. I love
"Poor-Man's" interpretations, I am not likely to fall for no-name copies
at the same price.
Do you like the IWC Portugieser line any way, as a
chronograph-nut?
I think the Portugieser line is an interesting line/watch
and very very beautiful. I am not as big of a fan as many people are
because I'm an hour-register sort of guy and I feel a chronograph
lacking an hour register is of limited utility. I own several
Porsche-Design/IWC Chronographs which I am very fond of. I wish they
were still available new and still easily findable used at reasonable
prices.
Ironically of the current IWC models the one I really like the most
is the Da Vinci line. I think the Da Vinci (either the original or the
Rattrapante) in Gold is the ultimate dress watch... In fact one I've
heard my Ed. Heuer & Co. 125th Jubilee chronograph likened to a
"Little Da Vinci", and if you look at the "Small Da Vinci" you can see
why...
Reference 3736 from IWC. The small Da Vinci in 18
ct. yellow gold with brown crocodile leather
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