Imagining Current Brands As Independent Watchmakers— Longines Zulu Time Titanium on the wrist

Fratello On Air: Imagining Current Brands As Independent Watchmakers

What would happen if some famous names left the corporate umbrella?

May 06, 2025

comments 27

Welcome to the latest episode of Fratello On Air! This week, we imagine certain current brands as independent watchmakers. The topic was a lot of fun to discuss and came as a suggestion from two of our listeners. Enjoy the show!

Most of today’s watch brands belong to large groups. Undoubtedly, this helped many survive the Quartz Crisis during the ’70s. However, what if some brands went independent? In today’s episode, we envision several companies on their own and what it would look like.

Handgelenkskontrolle

We start our show with a bit of DIY talk. Then, Balazs mentions a recent auction of Kobe Bryant’s debut jersey. It sold for US$7 million! For the Handgelenkskontrolle, Mike is wearing a watch that can survive all the yardwork. It’s the Citizen Promaster Tough “Ray Mears.” Balazs met with a mutual friend from Swatch Group Germany and is sporting his Omega Speedmaster Professional Speedy Tuesday “Ultraman.”

Current brands going independent

For our main topic, we respond to the request from two of our listeners who asked if some brands could benefit by going independent. We do our best to tackle the subject and mention five marques. Cartier is a huge brand and could likely survive on its own, but we’re not sure if there’s a benefit to being alone. Longines is a brand that made world-class movements long ago, and we’d love to see some of the classic chronograph movements again. Omega, like Cartier, could likely survive as an independent, and we play out the possible scenarios. Finally, Vacheron Constantin and Panerai make the list as possible spin-offs.

We hope you enjoy the show, and thanks to our listeners for the suggestion! If you have ideas for future episodes, please let us know!

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Fratello On Air: Imagining Current Brands As Independent Watchmakers

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1Gav1 says:

May 06, 2025 at 13:53

Don’t have time to listen at the mo, but taking the question as which brand would *benefit* and not merely survive, then possibly Omega the most.

I’ve got no idea about Longines or Panerai as never really paid much attention to them other than knowing Longines depend on China for 70%+ of their sales; Vacheron I’m undecided on, and judging by Cartier moving up to be second only to Rolex I think they’d benefit the least of the chosen bunch, or they certainly seem to need independence the least.

I would’ve had Breguet in the list. In theory they couldn’t do worse than being separated from Swatch Group’s tepid marketing efforts, but in reality they have the strength of the Lemania manufacture and Switzerland’s largest array of guilloché rose engines at their disposal thanks to the Hayek family. What would they keep?

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artguy76 says:

May 06, 2025 at 13:56

Loved the dad joke of putting stuff in the loft and it being problemAttic

Reply
VC
Victor777 says:

May 06, 2025 at 16:03

As a card-carrying JLC stan, I think that the maison could do well as a smaller and strictly high-end focused independent. With Jérôme Lambert back at the helm, JLC maintains a fully integrated manufacture, controlling all aspects of production from movement design to finishing, which is rare even among top Swiss houses. On the other hand, as part of Richemont, JLC benefits from shared resources, global distribution, and marketing support. Going independent would mean shouldering these costs and risks alone, which could be challenging in the current luxury landscape. Every industry goes through cycles of growth, followed by consolidation, and then divestitures. I’m just not sure that the current economic climate is conducive to the scenario proposed in your talk, whether it’s Longines, Omega, or any other established brand. Aside from vanity projects (see Bill Ackman – Bremont), risk capital is scarce in the luxury segment. Investors are more discerning, favoring brands demonstrating resilience, innovation, and a clear value proposition in a changing market, but this is generally skewed towards ultra-high luxury. Partners Group’s investment in Breitling is performing reasonably well, and the outlook remains optimistic as the brand prepares for a potential IPO in 2027, so who knows? Maybe their Global Value SICAV fund will further expand pre-IPO, but pure independence is tough. Since we’re talking hypotheticals, the next episode should be: “Which brands will be acquired?” I have some ideas, but I’d like to hear from you first 😉

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1. Douglas Waterbottom says:
  
  May 06, 2025 at 22:09
  
  Great comment but I think JLC’s marketing can only go up since it seems to be nonexistent IMO. I’m a huge fan of them by the way.
  
  Reply
2. Diens says:
  
  May 07, 2025 at 09:39
  
  I hope that’s true because I recently made a deposit/order for a MUT Moon 36mm.
  
  It wasn’t cheap, that’s for sure, but it is arguably the best dress watch in its weight class.
  
  Reply
  1. JMD says:
    
    May 08, 2025 at 15:24
    
    👍I was well aware of the 39mm model but didn’t even know they made that one.
    
    Reply
3. DM
  TacoPants says:
  
  May 07, 2025 at 14:28
  
  JLC is a great case study. To me, it seems that JLC is not receiving a lot of support in terms of marketing etc. Distribution yes… but honestly severing the tie with Richemont might allow them to have a more focused retail strategy, rather than tagging along with the rest of the Richemont brands.
  
  Where I think independence would really help JLC is the freedom to create the products at the price points they choose, without any concern for stepping on the toes of Richemont brands. I don’t know for certain that this happens… but it sure feels this way. Seems to trace back to Richemont’s purchase of Cartier. JLC and Cartier were often at the same price points, and JLC provided more “watchmaking value” at those price points. So JLC was pushed upmarket to minimize overlap.
  
  This brand separation makes sense on a spreadsheet at Richemont HQ, but it does undercut JLC’s positioning as a superb value prop for a technical watchmaker and makes it more of “just another luxury brand” offering table-stakes levels of watchmaking at their price point. In general I think orchestrating brands to minimize overlap kills competition and thus hurts value prop, hurts consumers, and hurts the brands themselves in the long term. It only has the *potential* to help the ownership group…
  
  Reply
  1. Diens says:
    
    May 07, 2025 at 16:19
    
    Sure, but getting upper mid tier watches at regular mid prices was never going to be sustainable. It isn’t just Richemont’s portfolio that’s responsible for JLC’s price hikes, it’s the watch industry as a whole. Why shouldn’t JLC price their watches above Omega and Rolex? Does it seem ‘right’ for an Aqua Terra or Oyster Perpetual to be the same price as a Reverso Monoface?
    
    Last week a JLC sales associate spoke to me about the significant price increases over the last few years. She admitted that it angered many customers, including ones she had relationships with, but it was mostly about brand positioning in the wider marketplace. In other words, JLC know they make nicer watches than other mid tier brands and they feel prices should reflect that, so they were raised accordingly. Whether they were increased too drastically or ‘unfairly’ is another matter entirely.
    
    Reply
    1. DM
      TacoPants says:
      
      May 08, 2025 at 17:28
      
      “Why shouldn’t JLC price their watches above Omega and Rolex?”
      
      I think your 2nd paragraph sums up exactly why! They have to deliver the right product at the right price according to what their CLIENTS are willing to pay, not what they feel entitled to charge relative to their perceived competitors!
      
      I totally understand that they feel their watches are better than Rolex at a given price point… But Rolex are charging what people will pay for a Rolex, not what generically people are willing to pay for X quality watch at X price. If JLC want to charge more, I think they need to do more than simply raise prices. They need to reach new clients or change their value prop in the eyes of existing clients. From what your JLC sales associate says about client feedback, they haven’t successfully pulled off this business move yet!
      
      Reply
      1. Diens says:
        
        May 11, 2025 at 10:56
        
        I see your point, but presumably it’s a long term strategy to move the brand further upmarket. The only way they can achieve this is by discouraging ‘lower end’ buyers from purchasing their watches. It’s undoubtedly risky as wealthier clients would likely go high horology and bypass JLC altogether, but the rationale behind this move was reasonably sound. The mistake they made was being too aggressive with price increases. They should have spread them out over a period of 4-5 years.
        
        As for your point about brand perception, keep in mind that Asia is increasingly the focus for Swiss brands moving forward, and in that part of the world, especially China, brand positioning is literally everything, and JLC’s client base is growing in that region while falling in the west.
        
        According to the Morgan Stanley 2024 watch report, JLC experienced a decrease in sales volume from 2023 without a sufficient appreciation in average sale price, which suggests this strategy has not worked in the short term, but again, I believe this is a long term plan.
        
        Give it another 5-10 years. We’ll discuss it again then 🙂
        
        Reply
Dan Trelford says:

May 06, 2025 at 17:30

Roy, it seems we have no choice but to launch our own rival podcast – ‘Wrist Time with Roy’. I have other titles in mind, but this covers a range of topics.

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1. Mike Stockton says:
  
  May 06, 2025 at 18:07
  
  Speedos & Naked Attractions? 😉
  
  Reply
  1. Dan Trelford says:
    
    May 06, 2025 at 23:01
    
    Can we borrow the Fratello Talks podcast studio?
    
    Reply
  2. Matt_McD says:
    
    May 07, 2025 at 16:28
    
    “Speedos & Speedmasters”©️
    
    Reply
2. Roy-65 says:
  
  May 06, 2025 at 21:02
  
  Omg you’re completely right. Now I see it also.
  But why limit ourselves to wrist time only?
  End of the week I’ll be in Marbella again and I believe the Speedos are on sale. It would be a joy to send some bonus pictures to the discord👍🏽
  
  Reply
Kanji says:

May 06, 2025 at 20:12

Omega and Longines cannot survive as independents. Who would supply them with calibers if not Swatch-owned ETA? They’ll have to switch to Sellita lol.
JLC, Lange, Zenith etc. could be spun off relatively easily from their parent groups, not that it’s going to happen.

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1. Balazs says:
  
  May 07, 2025 at 08:08
  
  And are you saying that Sellita is worse than ETA? 🙂
  
  Reply
2. DM
  TacoPants says:
  
  May 07, 2025 at 14:34
  
  Do you genuinely think that 97% of Longines and Omega retail buyers care what the base movement is? People like you and I are the remaining 3% who care to know how the watch-sausage is made. And personally, I say bring-on Sellita movements if it keeps price points down!
  
  Reply
xbarx1 says:

May 07, 2025 at 00:50

It would be fascinating to see what they’d actually produce. Maybe something completely different and innovative, maybe not.
I would imagine a few shake ups in personnel.

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ItsGivingPatina says:

May 07, 2025 at 03:03

Guys I am pretty sure Longines does have boutiques. I just passed one in SoHo earlier.

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1. TheK33 says:
  
  May 10, 2025 at 03:00
  
  There’s at least one in Melbourne too.
  
  Reply
Diens says:

May 07, 2025 at 11:26

Richemont classify Cartier as a jewellery company, which tells us everything we need to know. Watches are very profitable for them obviously, but the markups on jewellery are far higher than watches.

As Cartier watches are basically jewellery pieces, I don’t see the benefit of them being independent, and they are an incredibly well managed brand nowadays, arguably even moreso than Rolex, and more men are buying their watches too, which means their growth potential is significant.

Longines would have trouble surviving on their own. Being part of the Swatch Group enables them to keep costs down, and they were already in trouble as a company before the quartz crisis. They used to be leaders in chronograph movements until Omega and Heuer overtook them in the 1960’s. Without Swatch, they would likely have to charge higher prices, which would be a problem given their overall position in the brand hierarchy. i.e. brand prestige isn’t strong enough.

No doubt that their watches are compromised to meet a certain price point, especially their heritage dress watches, which are far too big to be one to one replicas of their classic catalogue pieces. Why is a Flagship Heritage or Sector Dial 38 or 38.5mm with a 47mm lug to lug?

Longines have tons of boutiques btw, especially in Asia, and they will continue opening them as they move further upmarket, perhaps in an attempt to avoid heavy discounting that hurts the brand.

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Matt_McD says:

May 07, 2025 at 16:54

I know that the following doesn’t adhere to the rules of this episode’s assignment, but bear with me. I’d be interested to see Omega spun off in a pod of brands to include Tissot and Blancpain. The history buffs will know better than me, but IIRC Omega has, or has had, both overt and behind-the-scenes connections with each of these maisons. As a trio of brands, Tissot, Omega, and Blancpain are already nicely stacked in terms of price point, brand prestige, brand identity, and general aesthetics. These three could almost form a “Swatch Group in miniature”, well suited to offering customers a long runway of watch buying over time. As far as movements go, Tissot could buy in Sellita or LJP movements, and Blancpain has F Piguet for themselves and Omega. In this way, Omega would be in a position relatively similar to Breitling (with its revival of Universal Geneve etc ). Anyway… this is just me rambling over my morning coffee. Cheers and thanks for another fun episode.

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TheK33 says:

May 10, 2025 at 02:58

And in this week’s episode the boys record a podcast while bringing in cows from the fields. Enjoy the cowbells backing track😂

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1. Mike Stockton says:
  
  May 13, 2025 at 17:44
  
  Funny, I hadn’t listened until now – those were ice cubes in my yeti. It was hot!
  
  Btw – as always, NEEDS MORE COWBELL!!
  
  Reply
  1. TheK33 says:
    
    May 13, 2025 at 22:14
    
    Thanks for this episode. Please do another deep dive episode into classic divers or chronographs or best date watches or…
    
    Reply
Roy-65 says:

May 10, 2025 at 13:44

I am currently in Marbella with bad news. My wife (deliberately) forgot my Speedos, so now I’m writing this comment while wearing long shorts.

Mike and Balazs state that a wedding ring and a watch are the only pieces of jewelry a man can wear. My respect for both gentlemen is immeasurable but not infinite, and in this case, they are wrong. When it comes to jewelry, the same rule applies to men: “More is more, and bling is better.”

Mike’s wife understands—the whole concept of the Cartier Love Bracelet is that you receive it from your partner and never take it off. I had expected Mike to be a bit more romantic.
Besides, I always sleep with a watch on, charging the lume briefly with a flashlight.

Balazs, on the other hand, is going through quite the transformation. He has evolved from Grumpy (my favorite) through Romantic (Rolex for his girlfriend) to a Philosophical Balazs with a touch of Zen:
• Make the best version of yourself (Get an expensive gym membership and never work out);
• The less you know, the more you think (Dunning-Kruger);
• Somebody said some wise words (maybe it was me).

Anyway, it’s good to hear you found my long-lost brother.
If you mention me, you might get a discount—but skip the sticky mags.

On Topic:
I think it’s a difficult subject, and I try to analyze it from a distance. A small independent brand may not always survive tough times; being part of a larger group can be its salvation.

In the fashion industry, Prada “saved” Jil Sander and Church’s from extinction. Jil Sander, in particular, suffered from constraints she hadn’t faced before and ultimately left.
Recently, Prada acquired Versace, and Donatella stepped down. Now, fans fear that the iconic lion head and Medusa prints on the front of swimwear might disappear.

I believe the situation is similar for watch brands. Acquired brands can suffer under corporate pressure and lose their soul.
There are exceptions, such as Cartier and A. Lange & Söhne, which appear to be a win-win for both the brands and the groups they belong to.
Whenever a friend of mine wears his “Eins,” I like to tease him that they are not independent.

I also agree that it would be fantastic if brands like Longines could bring back their old movements to capitalize on the sexy vintage vibe sweeping through the watch world.

Keep up the good work, and see you on the beach! 😊

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